Curse

Daesu · May 15, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Revenous Gaze is bad because it doesn't do enough life steal to cover the sac of two orders meaning you have to drop either one of them and some other spells like MoP and Barbs too so you can take more heals. It makes absolutely no sense to me why you recomend running it over ER. Awful suggestion.

uh..Neither does ER and adding in DF and AtB only makes the life sac worse.

@OP: Try this build for HM. Recommended henchies are Mhenlo, Herta, Cynn, and who ever.

N/Rt (set to guard)
5 Blood
9 Curse
12+1+1 Death
8+1 SR
2 Restoration

Aotl or JB
Bone Minions
Weaken Armor or Mark of Pain (micro this)
Death Nova
Dark Fury or Mark of Pain (micro this and replace SoLS with Blood Bond, Curse 9+1)
Signet of Lost Souls
Rip Enchantment
Flesh of my Flesh

SoS Rt (set to avoid, guard when wielding a spear)
Channeling 12+1+1
Restoration 12+1
Spawning 3+1

Spirit Siphon
SoS
Ancestor's Rage
Splinter Weapon
Flesh of my Flesh
Mend Body and Soul
Life
Protective was Kaolai

ER E/Mo (set to avoid, guard when wielding a spear with 20% enchant)
Energy Storage 12+1+1
Smiting 10
Protection 8
Healing 2

Ether Renewal
Aura of Restoration
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
Infuse Health
Shield Guardian
Convert Hexes
Strength of Honor

Myotheraccount · May 15, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

uh..Neither does ER and adding in DF and AtB only makes the life sac worse.

ER easily outheals both sacs with AtB. Unless you mean that ER hero will stay at 66% HP if it keeps spamming Orders but there are other spells that help bring HP back to full. Besides, you don't have to constantly spam Orders but just maintain them.

Daesu · May 15, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

ER easily outheals both sacs with AtB. Unless you mean that ER hero will stay at 66% HP if it keeps spamming Orders but there are other spells that help bring HP back to full. Besides, you don't have to constantly spam Orders but just maintain them.

Each cast of Order only lasts about 6s so the hero would keep casting it, saccing 34% (not counting extra sac from AtB) of its life away every 6s.

Even though ER+AoR can help to balance off most of the life sac, but it is still a net negative. Plus, the HM monsters are not going to leave your ER hero alone and they hit hard. Also hero's ER can never be up all the time and the rest of the extra sac skills on that ER hero's bar makes it too dependent on it.

If you realize that you are trying to sustain 2 orders for only ONE single physical melee player then it becomes obvious that OOP+DF is a bad choice for a 3-caster heroes build. Sure, you can add Aidan and maybe Zho but they are not going to benefit much from all that orders and adrenaline that are you saccing alot for. It is just not worth it!

On top of that, despite what you said, it is not the kind of build for simple c-space playing because PS on a MM should be especially micro-ed with its 3s animate spells and the 2s DN casting to compete with PS.

Try it out in a simple degen place like Dalada Uplands HM and see for yourself.

Myotheraccount · May 15, 2010, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Each cast of Order only lasts about 6s so the hero would keep casting it, saccing 34% (not counting extra sac from AtB) of its life away every 6s.

Even though ER+AoR can help to balance off most of the life sac, but it is still a net negative. Plus, the HM monsters are not going to leave your ER hero alone and they hit hard. Also hero's ER can never be up all the time and the rest of the extra sac skills on that ER hero's bar makes it too dependent on it.

If you realize that you are trying to sustain 2 orders for only ONE single physical melee player then it becomes obvious that OOP+DF is a bad choice for a 3-caster heroes build. Sure, you can add Aidan and maybe Zho but they are not going to benefit much from all that orders and adrenaline that are you saccing alot for. It is just not worth it!

On top of that, despite what you said, it is not the kind of build for simple c-space playing because PS on a MM should be especially micro-ed with its 3s animate spells and the 2s DN casting to compete with PS.

Try it out in a simple degen place like Dalada Uplands HM and see for yourself.

Just roll an ER orders exactly like it's said in the article (with major rune) and you will see that you regain all health lost from the sac. Otherwise you will be losing around 2 hp per order if you spam one after the other which is an irrelevant loss and an implausible scenario. It's not micro heavy either. Only thing you may need to micro is PS.

Lastly, maybe two orders for just one physical isn't exactly a pinnacle of efficiency but as long as it helps me deal sexy three digit numbers and spam "SY!" like crazy, I don't mind. Besides, another physical may join up with you.

Daesu · May 16, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Just roll an ER orders exactly like it's said in the article (with major rune) and you will see that you regain all health lost from the sac. Otherwise you will be losing around 2 hp per order if you spam one after the other which is an irrelevant loss and an implausible scenario. It's not micro heavy either. Only thing you may need to micro is PS.

Check that ER needs 30s to recharge and how long does the ER last? Heroes also seems to cast ER when they need energy and not whenever it recharges. Even if ANet fixes the AI in the future, you still have >=8s ER down time with that bar.

The total amount of sac required in that build during the times when ER is down is hogging up the healing from the hench healers.

Quote:

Lastly, maybe two orders for just one physical isn't exactly a pinnacle of efficiency but as long as it helps me deal sexy three digit numbers and spam "SY!" like crazy, I don't mind. Besides, another physical may join up with you.

If you really need to spam more adrenaline skills check out EFGJack's DF builds which works a lot better in HM because he knows not to over extend his bar with OOP and AtB along with DF, not the inferior pvx dual Orders+AtB ER build. The pvx build is overly ambitious so much so that it becomes a build that is more suitable for NM than HM. I can say this because I have tested both.

The purpose of my ER protect/smite and bringing a MB is to make it much easier for c-spacers. If you want better efficiencies, more damage, with the cost of having to micro, see EFGJack's builds.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

I can replace my MB with EFGJack's default DF necro and it still works well even without micro. I would be using that configuration for low corpses areas.

Myotheraccount · May 16, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Check that ER needs 30s to recharge and how long does the ER last? Heroes also seems to cast ER when they need energy and not whenever it recharges. Even if ANet fixes the AI in the future, you still have >=8s ER down time with that bar.

The total amount of sac required in that build during the times when ER is down is hogging up the healing from the hench healers.

Micro ER if the hero forgets to cast it. Derp.

ER downtime is not an issue because the hero isn't going to cast orders more than once each during the downtime. So it's not going to be hogging up the healing like you say. Also, ER is cast at the start of the fight and lasts ~22 seconds. By the time it ends, most of the targets will be killed.

Quote:

If you really need to spam more adrenaline skills check out EFGJack's DF builds which works a lot better in HM because he knows not to over extend his bar with OOP and AtB along with DF, not the inferior pvx dual Orders+AtB ER build. The pvx build is overly ambitious so much so that it becomes a build that is more suitable for NM than HM. I can say this because I have tested both.

You actually tested something? Wow! Screenshot or it didn't happen.
Comparing his build to ER orders makes no sense. ER orders is not inferior. It's probably the best orders hero you can run for general c+spacing purposes. EFGJack's build is not a c+spacer. Hence I doub't you ever tried either of them.

Quote:

The purpose of my ER protect/smite and bringing a MB is to make it much easier for c-spacers. If you want better efficiencies, more damage, with the cost of having to micro, see EFGJack's builds.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

I can replace my MB with EFGJack's default DF necro and it still works well even without micro. I would be using that configuration for low corpses areas.

I am aware of those builds. No need to link them in your every post. Besides, it's not as much about his builds as it is about his skill as a player IMO. B/c all tactics involved in his builds were already known. Anyway, by all means use DF + MoF necro. It works really well with anything adrenaline. I been taking those skills for a while now too.

Daesu · May 16, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Micro ER if the hero forgets to cast it. Derp.

If you need to micro ER then it is not the c-space build that you said it is now, is it?

Also ER can be stripped and when that happens, you have to wait for the 30s recharge.

Quote:

ER downtime is not an issue because the hero isn't going to cast orders more than once each during the downtime. So it's not going to be hogging up the healing like you say. Also, ER is cast at the start of the fight and lasts ~22 seconds. By the time it ends, most of the targets will be killed.

Unless you want to wait there for ER to renew at the end of every fight before you move on (very boring and slows you down), you are not guaranteed to be able to cast ER just before every fight.

Quote:

You actually tested something? Wow! Screenshot or it didn't happen.
Comparing his build to ER orders makes no sense. ER orders is not inferior. It's probably the best orders hero you can run for general c+spacing purposes. EFGJack's build is not a c+spacer. Hence I doub't you ever tried either of them.

I use an ER too. But I dont build it with the assumption that ER would always be maintained when it is obviously not going to be present at all times. That is the difference! Tell you another thing, I never needed to micro my ER, unlike that dual orders AtB build.

Dual Orders AtB for a SINGLE melee fighter is just stupid for a HM 3-caster heroes build. Nobody else except you would think that is a good idea and keeps defending it like a fanboy.

Myotheraccount · May 17, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you need to micro ER then it is not the c-space build that you said it is now, is it?

We are going in circles now. In that case, the one you posted isn't that kind of c+space build either. Quite a stupid thing to say really. Every c+space build has something you may need to occasionally micro like PS, SoA, Masochism, MoP, WoW etc. Not an issue.

Quote:

Also ER can be stripped and when that happens, you have to wait for the 30s recharge.

No build is perfect. But it won't happen often when you got it covered by 3-4 other enchants.

Quote:

Unless you want to wait there for ER to renew at the end of every fight before you move on (very boring and slows you down), you are not guaranteed to be able to cast ER just before every fight.

Heroes don't mantain ER. They usually cast it when you aggro. I don't understand what youre trying to say here - your theorycrafting doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

I use an ER too. But I dont build it with the assumption that ER would always be maintained when it is obviously not going to be present at all times. That is the difference! Tell you another thing, I never needed to micro my ER, unlike that dual orders AtB build.

Yeah point indeed. A point to prove that everything you said about ER orders is bullshit. Do you even realise that without ER a hero can reduce it's health to 25% in just two casts of Infuse? That's less than OoP and DF cast one after another. And unlike Orders, Infuse has considerably faster casting time without a recharge and heroes love to spam it. So casting Infuse without ER is considerably more dangerous than a casting Orders without ER. Yet, you don't seem to have any troublem with it. Truth is, there really are no big troubles arising from ER is not always mantained with either of the two builds. But, it does make all your theorycrafting a complete bullshit because the ER Prot you like using so much suffers considerably more from this issue than the ER Orders.

Also, you can't talk about efficiency when you build your heroes on the assumption that you are going to be terrible (which you are, actually).

Quote:

Dual Orders AtB for a SINGLE melee fighter is just stupid for a HM 3-caster heroes build. Nobody else except you would think that is a good idea and keeps defending it like a fanboy.

They affect all physicals not just Melee. And nobody said there will always be one physical in your party. With one player and three heroes you will have up to 3 more slots to fill in (healer not counted). Also, Rupt Henchies, Barrage Henchies, Devona from GWEN has proven to be useful lately with KD's, Para in NF. Maybe, if you are the only physical it seems a bit of a waste, I said it before but on other hand Dark Fury is so sexy to have with "SY!" or anything adrenaline really. +14 damage doesn't hurt either especially seeing how the hero doesn't have any trouble tossing both orders around. So now explain how having massive adrenaline gain and dealing more sexy dommages (even if you are the only physical) is more stupid than your theorycrafting. But, if you really really really can't stand the sight of running two orders, swap either of them for MoF or anything you see fit.

Daesu · May 17, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Yes we going in circles at this point. And I am repeating myself that melee henchies AI suck in AoE and Ranger henchies suck in the first place for dual orders. And please dont pretend that build only requires 1 healer and 3 more slots for physical. Dual orders+AtB is not as necessary as you are making it out to be for a single melee physical.

Heroes dont always recast ER right away when it renews.

If I want a better orders build that work in HM without micro, I would use EFGJack's general DF bot, not that dual orders AtB junk which you think it is so great since it has that 'Great' rating in pvx. Fanboy defending it to the bitter end then so be it.

Myotheraccount · May 17, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes we going in circles at this point. And I am repeating myself that melee henchies AI suck in AoE and Ranger henchies suck in the first place for dual orders. Dual orders+AtB is NOT as necessary as you are indicating for a SINGLE melee player.

If I want a better orders build that work in HM without micro, I would use EFGJack's DF bot, not that dual orders AtB junk which you think it is so great since it has that 'Great' rating in pvx, so it must be great no matter what other people here say. Fanboy defending it to the bitter end.

You are either putting words into my mouth or can't/refusing to read properly. In either case, I never said it was necessary and thus you are once again, completely wrong.

Also, stop calling me a fanboy of the likes of yourself, spamming about EFGJack's builds in your every post when you don't even understand what makes his setup so good. Take a hero; slap DF and MoF on it. There you go a DF bot. I'm simply evaluating all pros and cons when fanboys like yourself refuse to deviate from their primitive "mai bild rockz and ozers suxxxx" way of thinking. Sadly, Guru was, is and will be a favourite spot for the likes of you to conglomerate to the very end of GW1. Quite sad but at least I can amuse myself crushing you in an argument.

Anyway, I have addressed your points, shown you where you are wrong and kicked off all of your ridiculous claims. All you have left to do now is try and drag me into a flame war or just flame and I am NOT going to participate in such a retarded feat so don't even try. No need to cry and kill yet another thread, Daesu. Like I said before, even though it may contradict your fanboy way of thinking it doesn't justify your whining. Have fun.

raea29 · May 19, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Ok guys, pardon my ignorance. Slavers and Shadow of Orr.... these are two of the hardest mission/dungeons etc. to complete? What are some of the others (Wiki doesn't rate difficulty).

Is it possible to do these with Builds such as Sabway and Spiritway? aka the build thats require very little mico-ing and effort. Is there anywhere in particular these builds just wouldn't work?

It's not that I'm lazy but i'm not getting the hang of body blocking, pulling or advanced micro-ing very well so I have decided to take the best build as being the most efficient with least effort build ie C-Spacing (if possible).

What is the best build considering what I have just said.

Thanks again everyone for very helpful insight and info so far =]

Myotheraccount · May 19, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by raea29

Ok guys, pardon my ignorance. Slavers and Shadow of Orr.... these are two of the hardest mission/dungeons etc. to complete? What are some of the others (Wiki doesn't rate difficulty).

Is it possible to do these with Builds such as Sabway and Spiritway? aka the build thats require very little mico-ing and effort. Is there anywhere in particular these builds just wouldn't work?

It's not that I'm lazy but i'm not getting the hang of body blocking, pulling or advanced micro-ing very well so I have decided to take the best build as being the most efficient with least effort build ie C-Spacing (if possible).

What is the best build considering what I have just said.

Thanks again everyone for very helpful insight and info so far =]

Spiritway can do pretty much every dungeon HM, even the ones with massive AoE if you flag your heroes right. Some variations of sabway will work too but you will need to wall block from time to time.

Discord is probably the worst choice for dungeons because it lacks DPS. That means you will struggle on chest bosses or other resilient stuff. So you may need to use a conset.

But, if you want really massive returns for least effort involved, definitely run Spiritway.

raea29 · May 19, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

But, if you want really massive returns for least effort involved, definitely run Spiritway.

Thanks a lot for this. It was a dead honest and simple answer so that even I could understand it =D

Myotheraccount · May 20, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Something I put together. It's a c+space build that uses three powerful hero concepts: A variant of DF bot but with Barbs because you don't ball often, SoS/SoH Rit and MB that Jeydra used in Slaver's Exile.

Strong like a bear seriously. Deals massive ammounts of damage and good defense from spirits, minion wall and SY! So far I vanquished more or less all GW:EN and some random stuff all over the world. Also did Charr Invasion HM. I'm sure it can run Dungeons too. Although some sort of tank & spank or Spiritway may be more efficient. In other aspects of PvE like Vanquishing and HM Missions where mobs are weak and battles short, c+space becomes considerably more efficient. Even if you will have to wall block something, this build has anough aoe to blow it up extremely fast.

DF bot is very flexible. You don't have to run the optionals I suggested, you can run ANYTHING in those three optional slots. DS, SoA, SoD, ER, rupts and so on and so forth. I just didnt want to waste my entire sandbox on listing all the options.

For my Warrior I use this. Fantastic build for dealing massive (I mean it) DPS and mantaining SY!

I suggest you try these out. :>

raea29 · May 20, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

For my Warrior I use this. Fantastic build for dealing massive (I mean it) DPS and mantaining SY!

I suggest you try these out. :>

Thanks these look great. I'll give em a shot. Have a look at PvX and under Great/Warrior Enduring Scythe seems as good as daggers? Do you think?

Myotheraccount · May 20, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by raea29

Thanks these look great. I'll give em a shot. Have a look at PvX and under Great/Warrior Enduring Scythe seems as good as daggers? Do you think?

I have run both but liked the dagger version much better because it isn't as tight on energy. In fact, it can spam the dagger chain easier than an Assassin primary. W/D is good too but W/A is easier, better with AP and imo stronger especially if taking barbs into acount. I dunno why it's not in Great tbh. =/

raea29 · May 20, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I have run both but liked the dagger version much better because it isn't as tight on energy. In fact, it can spam the dagger chain easier than an Assassin primary. W/D is good too but W/A is easier, better with AP and imo stronger especially if taking barbs into acount. I dunno why it's not in Great tbh. =/

yeah with the right equipment it is good for spamming the chain. I haven't personally tried W/D as of yet but from what you say I agree so far. I would rate it Great but I can never tell with PvX sometimes

distilledwill · May 21, 2010, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Just to take a break from the squabbling, here is what I use with my melee characters:

N/Mo:
Discord
Animate Bone Minions
Death Nova
Putrid Bile
Enfeebling Blood
Protective Spirit
Draw Conditions
Signet of Lost Souls

N/Rt
Reaper's Mark
Mend Body and Soul
Spirit Transfer
Weapon of (can't remember! the one which counters hexes/conditions!)
Protective Was Kaolai
Life
Signet of Lost Souls
Death Pact Signet

Rt/Mo
Signet of Spirits
Bloodsong
Renewing Surge
Splinter Weapon
Ancestors' Rage
Castigation Signet
Smite Hex
Strength of Honor

Combine it with any melee character and you're laughing. Good defense with a strong necro healer, protection support from the MM and hex/condition support from both other characters. Enfeebling is awesome in HM. Spirit/Minion wall is also good for defense.

In terms of offense you have splinter/ancestors to pump up your short range damage - you yourself are buffed with SoH. SoS is awesome still and discord is always a goodie. Its best to be able to inflict a hex and a condition in case the ones on your hero builds are on a cooldown (so, stuff like Asuran Scan is always good and obviously there are lots of melee profession condition skills).

Anime Divine · May 21, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

lol this thread still going on.
.
but id have to say about that guy who posted pics about damage.
THAT is a very bad demonstration lol

its true a single can outdamage 3 necros. but its the sync that what makes discord so effective.
rather than take 70 seconds to kill just 1 enemy discord does it for you in 3 secs. hell even less. and a full groep does not take more than a minute.
provided all the hex condition and a full 8 man team attacking.
i dont see any normal so called balanced build beat that.

it is not only effective at killing single targets fast but also widespread. if you got splinterweapon and widespread degen.

heres an old pic im simply too lazy to go prove myself. see what splinterweapon really does.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...9&d=1234345204

raea29 · May 21, 2010, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Just to take a break from the squabbling

I actually found the squabbling to be very useful because I got to see/hear reason why things don't work... and as i'm not anywhere near an elite player it is good for learning sakes =]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

lt is not only effective at killing single targets fast but also widespread. if you got splinterweapon and widespread degen.

heres an old pic im simply too lazy to go prove myself. see what splinterweapon really does.

Yeah splinter weapon is fantastic if used with a good melee character with the pyshical team builds but this post manages to explain to me (which is the idea) what is and isn't good for warriors to use.

Thanks again everyone. In the midst of making these team builds and trying them out =]